The People of the State of Michigan - - - (Complainants)

VS

William Shimmel - - - (Defendant)

Edward McCarthy

†††††††††† Cross Examination

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Page 109

 

 

 

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. TURNER.

 

 

Q

Now this man was running west wasnít he?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And on which side of the road was the milk stand situated?

A

On the south side.

 

 

Q

On the south side?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

So that he ran by you which side of him would be towards you?

A

His left side would be towards me.

 

 

Q

And id that road run right in front of you?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And he was about fifteen feet from you?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Now did you have a lantern with you?

A

No, sir.

 

 

Q

Did you have one?

A

No, sir.

 

 

Q

Did Tom have one with him?

A

No, sir.

 

 

Q

Was it a moonlight night?

A

The darkest night that week.

 

 

Q

It was eh?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Was there any moon at all?

A

No, sir, there wasnít a particle of moon.

 

 

 

Page 110

 

 

Q

So that you could not see very well so as to distinguish objects even at a distance of fifteen feet?

A

Not so very well, no, sir.

 

 

Q

All you could distinguish was that there was a man.

A

That was about all.

 

 

Q

Now could you tell so that you could swear to it whether the man was a white man or a black man?

A

Well to tell the truth I would not want to swear positively, but to the best of my conclusions - -

 

 

Q

(Interrupting)† Certainly, but what is the actual fact about it - - you couldnít tell, could you, from the darkness there fifteen feet away, the darkness like there was at that time, you couldnít tell whether he was a black man or a white man?

A

I come to the conclusion when I sat there that it was a white man.

 

 

Q

I know you come to that conclusion but you didnít have anything to base it on from the facts in the case, did you?

A

Well I could tell a white man from a nigger any time.

 

 

Q

Well do you mean you could use your own judgment in warm weather about that or what?

A

No, the general outlines.

 

 

Q

What?

A

From the general outlines and the actions at that distance I could tell a white man from a colored man.

 

 

Q

Then you took it from the general actions and the outline?

A

Well from my own conclusions I come to the conclusion that it was a white man because I have seen a good many niggers.

 

 

Q

I know, but you could not swear positively and you would not do it, would you that that man was a white man or that he was a negro?

 

 

 

Page 111

 

 

A

Well I would rather swear he was a white man than a coon.

 

 

Q

Well but you would not swear to it would you?

A

Well I would hate to swear positively that I knew it was a white man, but I am pretty well satisfied in my own mind that it was a white man.

 

 

Q

Now then about how high is this milk stand above the road there?† The height of a lumber wagon?

A

It is about six inches higher than that table.

 

 

Q

That would bring it about up to where a person could easily set the cans onto a lumber wagon?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And you sat up there and this man ran in front of you?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

And what was there on the opposite side of the road?

A

From where we sat?

 

 

Q

Yes, sir.

A

There was a railroad track.

 

 

Q

Just a railroad track?

A

There is a bank there.

 

 

Q

How high is that bank?

A

It is about two foot.

 

 

Q

About two foot high?

A

Possibly a little higher.

 

 

Q

And about how far on the other side of the road is the railroad or does it run right up to the road?

A

They intersect right there.

 

 

Q

Now what is right beyond this railroad?

 

 

 

Page 112

 

 

A

An electric road.

 

 

Q

They intersect there too do they?

A

Yes, sir, farther down the road.

 

 

Q

Well I know but is there any bushes or anything of that kind?

A

There is some trees over there about four rods.

 

 

Q

From where you sat?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

What kind of trees are they?

A

Dog maple.

 

 

Q

About how large are they?

A

Quite large trees, they are good shaped trees.

 

 

Q

And how close are they together?

A

Probably they are a rod or two part some of them.

 

 

Q

So from where you sat in your position there on the milk stand there was quite a dark background on the other side o this man when he ran by you wasnít there?

A

It was not necessary for a dark background that night.

 

 

Q

I know but there was a dark back ground anyway, wasnít there, taking the two foot rise and the trees and everything there was a dark background?

A

It is not darker there on any other night than it is any other place.

 

 

Q

It isnít?

A

No, it isnít, it doesnít seem to be according to my opinion.

 

 

Q

Well now this man ran right in front of you about as far as you are from me now?

A

Just fifteen feet, because we measured it the next morning.

 

 

Q

That would be about as far as I am from you, wouldnít it?

 

 

 

Page 113

 

 

A

Yes, sir, we will call it that.

 

 

Q

All you saw according to the statements you have made here was the general outline?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Now could you see his face at all?

A

I could see his face when he stopped and turned around there.

 

 

Q

How far did he get by you when he turned around?

A

He went at a slight angle there, it might have made a difference of four or five feet from straight across the road.

 

 

Q

And you could see his face there?

A

No, I couldnít see it to describe it, I couldnít tell whether the man had a mustache or anything like that but I could see that the man turned his head.

 

 

Q

And you could see what kind of hat he had on?

A

Yes, sir, I thought I did.

 

 

Q

What?

A

Yes sir, I could see that he wore a hat, that was the best of my belief, that the man wore a hat.

 

 

Q

And you could see what kind of a coat he had on?

A

Why the coat looked dark.

 

 

Q

And about how far did it reach down - - the coat?

A

Pretty near to his knees.

 

 

Q

Now you could tell all that from where you sat, you could see it could you?

A

Yes, sir.

 

 

Q

Now then where did you say his right had was?

A

I told you that once.